“If you clear snow from the front of your house or from the path to your house and somebody slips and injures themselves, you could potentially be held liable for civil action for compensation; it is one of the anomalies of English (or should that be British?) law that equally, if you do not clear the snow, you may be liable for civil action for compensation.

In the first instance, it is the state the path was left in that would be the focus of an action- was it left in a safe condition? In the second, it could be lack of care (for your own path to your door) that might attract a legal action.

So while I understand fully what you are saying, it is not quite that simple!”

“This sounds like a very bad idea to me,
1.If it snows then its normally gone the next day anyway so there is no point.
2.Who is going to inforce the fines.
3.What happens if it snows all day ? Do you have to clear it once an hour ?
4.What fines would be next ? grass to long might be slippy when wet ? Dirt on the driveway it could mark peoples shoes ?
5.Its obvious snow can be slippy so if you dont think it looks safe you simply dont walk on it.
Its a very silly idea in everyway i can think.”

“In a lot of cases People do not own the Path outside there houses. So I think it is an idea that will never come into being.

Have A Better Idea:
Visit: http://tinyurl.com/7o5fswj”

“Case law is that if you clean the snow and in doing so make it slippy you are liable to be sued for any injury. Forcing people to clean the snow would probably create far more problems than it solves. But at least Councils might find such a law give them a useful new revenue source in fining people!! :-(”

“I think it would be imposible to enforce as somebody have to monitor every drive and pathway in the country and it would cost far to much to inforce so its a no brainer really just leave the whole idea well alone.”

“I advocate 'snow teams' trained in clearing the snow that could do so leaving the pathways safe. Niceseasonal job, money moving in the economy, unemployed figures down. What more could we ask for?”

“by CllrChris
But at least Councils might find such a law give them a useful new revenue source in fining people!! :-("

What a typical answer from a Councillor!! You cannot enforce the laws you already have on a Number of different issues.”

“Tammy - I can't see how you can think my comment was a "typical answer from a councillor". Did you not see the irony in the wording? And the un-smiley face at the end?? I've no doubt some councillors in some local authorities would jump at the chance to get such a new revenue stream. But please don't put me on that same boat.”

“@ Tammy

I know CllrChris from our local pact meetings, and I can assure you he is not a typical councillor and I for one do not expect 'typical answers' from him.”

“I don't know what the law is there , but the footpath is councils responsibility surely ,and i think you will find that if you clean the footpath and someone slips on it afterwards the injured person and the Council could sue you ,on the other hand i think you will find that the law requires you to provide safe passage from your front gate to your front door
. There was a case here recently of a man who lived out of town on a dirt road that was full of potholes , he became so tired of driving on it , he graded the road with his own machine 30 kilometres of it ( did a good job too ) the local council took him to court and he copped a big fine.
if i was concerned about it i would be checking my Household Insurance Policy to see if i was covered for it , i have public liability insurance that covers me if anyone is injured on my property so i never worry about it .
Snow is an act of God ( Nature ) to many Insurance Company's though and quite often they will not pay up if some one is injured due to an act of God ,but any Magistrate or Judge that awarded damages to some one who slipped in snow would have to be very incompetent , we are going down the American road and to my way of thinking it's time we got back on the old British road.
I think you will find Abominate is right we are responsible for the state of the footpath from our front gate to our front door, including the state of repair unless it's a rented house of course, that is an interesting one , maybe we need a lawyer?.”

“I know Chris Cook is an independant Councillor. So were does that put you Abominate, what pact are you in?”

“The Conservative Councillors should be made to clear all the Paths, for their Penance.”

“Don't be put off clearing paths because you're afraid someone will get injured. Remember, people walking on snow and ice have a responsibility to be careful themselves.

And don't believe the myths - it's unlikely you'll be sued or held legally responsible for any injuries if you have cleared the path carefully.

Clear the snow and ice early in the day, it is easier to move fresh, loose snow rather than hard snow that has packed together from people walking on it. So if possible, start removing the snow and ice in the morning. If you remove the top layer of snow in the morning, any sunshine during the day will help melt any ice beneath. You can then cover the path with salt before nightfall to stop it refreezing overnight.

Use salt or sand - not water; don't make the pathways more dangerous by causing them to refreeze. If you use water to melt the snow, it may refreeze and turn to black ice. Black ice increases the risk of injuries as it is invisible and very slippery.

You can melt snow or prevent black ice by spreading some salt on the area you have cleared. You can use ordinary table or dishwasher salt - a tablespoon for each square metre you clear should work. Don't use the salt found in salting bins - this will be needed to keep the roads clear.

If you don't have enough salt, you can also use sand or ash. These won't stop the path icing over as effectively as salt, but will provide good grip underfoot.

When you're shovelling snow, take care where you put it so it doesn't block people's paths or drains. Make sure you make a path down the middle of the area to be cleared first, so you have a clear surface to walk on. Then shovel the snow from the centre of the path to the sides.

If your neighbour will have difficulty getting in and out of their home, offer to clear snow and ice around their property as well. Check that any elderly or disabled neighbours are alright in the cold weather. If you're worried about them, try contacting their relatives or friends, or if necessary the local council.

http://tinyurl.com/34r723v”

“Tammy. You may well know that Cllr Cooke is an independant. I wonder if you know the amount of flak and hostility he gets regularly from other non independant councillors. this guy IS actually independant, which is why he gets the flak from those that put party before the electorate. I really wish that he represented my ward instead of the faceless ones that we have.
I have witnessed him battling the rest on many matters, and he is fighting weasel words and action over something that should be of concern to all at TBC and Stafford; namely the flouride being dumped in our drinking water.
A saint he aint, but he is head and shoulders above the others.”

“@ Tammy

If you mean 'pact' as a noun, meaning which political camp I fall into I am a confirmed and unshakeable socialist of the old school; if you mean P.A.C.T as in the Partners and Communities Together I am in the Mercian Ward; unfortunately, however work commitments have kept me from attending meetings for several months and will do so for the foreseeable future.

I also concur with @ weskiwi. CllrChris is truly independent and disliked by many of our more orthodox 'representatives' simply because he wants to tell the truth and let the electorate hear it.”

“Yes, I have already stated the Fact about CllrChris. I have also read is Blog, and understand the amount of flak and hostility he gets regularly from other non independant councillors.

I admire him for being Independent and telling the Truth, unlike all the rest.
I think somewhere you must have missed my meaning, I want more Independent Councillors.

CllrChris, I do not put you in the same boat, but like you stated: I've no doubt some councillors in some local authorities would jump at the chance to get such a new revenue stream.

@Abominate
So you are an old Labour supporter, So were does that leave you now. I am sure you would not go along with this New Labour lot? Conservative\New Labour\Liberal they all sound, and act like the same party.”

“Tammy, it's OK, I'm not taking any offence. Just some slight miscommunication here I think.

But I do stand by my words. For instance - you may have noticed a comment here from an Andrew James (not the Tamworth Councillor by any chance?) very helpfully explaining to us how we might best keep our paths clear. Educating us in the simple skills of path clearance. Telling us not to worry about the "myths" of prosecution. Such "helpful" education precedes EVERY push for a new enforcement regime, jobsworths and fines. So perhaps it would also be helpful for us to know if Cllr James is for or against any enforcement? If "against" then his position would not be much different to mine. People should be allowed to clean their paths if, in there considered opinion and wisdom, with regard to the actual conditions that exist, they think by doing so it is making things better. That's personal freedom! No petty government sticking its nose in and looking to make more profits and employ more private contractors for enforcement.

If I say I'd prefer things to stay as they are it is because any legal obligation to maintain footways/pavements presently lies with the highway authority (on public roads) or the occupier (note, not necessarily the landowner, on private premises). Any claim for compensation would be purely a Civil Court matter. No police, unlikely to be any lawyers, etc. Such claims are rare - but where they exist it is usually because a pathway that has been "cleared" but has become icy as a result.

It is unrealistic to expect all occupiers to clear pathways. If an enforcement regime came in how would it draw the line between those who can and those who can't? It would be a recipe for confusion. I presently get involved in a fair amount of "parking enforcement" cases and - believe me - it's nothing like as simple as "bad parkers" ...."causing congestion". And it's often the least well off that become most vulnerable to getting fines.

To my mind it should always be a question of what is most reasonable. Most reasonable in this case is not to mess about making ever more new and, most probably, bad laws.”

“I agree with most of you. To introduce more laws, or bye-laws would just provide more hassle and bureaucracy for ordinary people. I'm sure the jobsworths, lawyers, and some politicians would find it another welcoming empire building excercise so as to justify their own positions. We have laws now which cover everything. The trouble is they are not enforced. Hence the scramble by every 'new' Government to try to beat the previous one in the amount of legislation they can get on the Statute Books.

I have known a time in the past when it was considered a service provided by the local council to clear and grit some of the main pathways in the town and its surrounds.”

“CllrChris
Yes I think it was just "miscommunication"

I do envy your constituents in the Glascote Ward having an Independent Councillor. I just hope in time we can get a lot more Independent Councillors on board.
I can also understand what you must have to put up with, from the other Conservative and Labour Councillors.
The People of Tamworth should see, by your own example, that Independent Councillors makes better sense for the Future of Tamworth and its People.

It is a pity, that the other Councillors were not so open. It would seem they only feel safe in numbers. Some even go so far as hiding the fact, that they are a Councillor, instead choosing to use alias names on Websites and Forums?

With regard to clearing the Snow of our Paths. I think most people do it for their own, and others safety automatically. We also go to our elderly Parents, or other relatives houses to make sure their paths are ok to.
Often, you will find most common footpaths and back roads are just left by the highways department.
I am totally "against" any enforcement regime.”

“CllrChris
I think you should take a look at this Forum Visit: http://tinyurl.com/7o5fswj"
.”

“CllrChrios, I think you should take a look at this Forum
Visit: http://tinyurl.com/7o5fswj"”

“@ Tammy

Old Labour and proud to say so; and where does that leave me now? It leaves me in a two party state with no effective opposition; it leaves me looking at candidates at each election and voting for the one that best represents my beliefs- which can be pretty damn difficult!

The New Labour career politicians would have done better to leave the Labour Party and join the Conservatives. I agree with your sentiments completely. They do sound and act like one party. If New Labour wants my vote back there are some very simple things they can do:

• Drop the 'New' and most of the current MPs

• Stand up and say they will reverse the privatisation of education, the NHS and the new rumblings we are hearing about the police force

• Re-nationalise the utilities and the railways with no compensation to shareholders etc. who will have already made a pretty penny on the backs of poor folk trying to keep warm or get to work

• Reverse the draconian anti-trades union legislation of the last 30+ years that have led to a stagnation of wages and thus the economy and in my view has increased unemployment rather than save jobs

• Educate people- many people I know and talk to only know the Tory and right wing media version of socialism- and believe it to be so. Get the message out!

• Reintroduce Clause IV to the Labour Party constitution

• Don't be afraid to sing 'The Red Flag' at conference!”

“@Abominate
Yes, that was the Labour Party I voted for so many years. Unless they get the Old Labour Party back, which to be honest, I could never see happening, it leaves the Voters with very little choice.

I myself, was a Union official back in the early 1970`s. When Thatcher got in, the Country for me went straight downhill.

Reintroduce Clause IV to the Labour Party constitution
It also recognises the "important role of trade unions in protecting and advancing the interests of working people" and the need to protect rights such as collective bargaining and workers' participation in employment decisions.

If they ever could reverse the last 30 years, then The Labour Party would be a force to be reckoned with. But with The New Labour career politicians they do not stand a chance. Plus most New Labour MP`s go along with The Conservatives, so why do they not become Conservatives?

The BNP Party looks a better option at the moment?”

“by andyjames007 You have got to be joking , i just did a quick calculation ,not guaranteed 100% correct but close enough , average footpath outside the fence 15 square metres ? i tablespoon of salt for each square metre , half a kilo of salt? ? clear the neighbour's path as well , and don't use the councils salt who is going to pay for the salt , you would have to be a councilor to talk like that , what about if it snows for a week ? and don't believe the myths about being sued ? where on earth have you been for the last 30 years , if you are a councilor maybe it would be a good idea if you consulted the council solicitor and then came back here and told people what the solicitor has to say about it and i think he would tell a different story to you .”

“pommymick, I suggest you contact direct.gov.uk and tell them their website is incorrect as that is where I gathered the above information from”

“It is usual and considered good manners when copying and pasting from another website to accredit the source rather than have other readers believe the words and expertise are yours.

We can all copy and paste; some of us can also think- much to the chagrin of government and petty officials.

The government is quite entitled to express its opinion on its own website, just as I may express my opinions on mine. It doesn't make it right or even accurate.

While government may enact legislation, it is the judiciary that interprets and applies them, and they may take a different view than that of the government or its legal representatives. Unless, of course we are saying the supposed independent judiciary are, in fact controlled by the government and make decisions according to their interpretations of the law. Perhaps Cllr James knows something we don't (or aren't supposed to!)?”

“by AbominateMonday, March 12 2012, 4:45PM couldn't have put it better , one thing is for sure i would never clean footpaths that are councils responsibility using my own resources , and cllr James should watch the news a bit more often , suing people is a world wide phenomenon these days and some people seize on the smallest opportunity to make a quick dollar or pound even out of somebody else's good intentions.”

“Thank you, pommymick.

As has already been said earlier in the discussion, any claim would be in a civil court (unless of course one could argue the pavement was deliberately left in a dangerous condition with the intent to cause injury- gets more complicated, don't it?) and the legal representatives would argue in court their case, and the court would make a decision based on these arguments considered in context with precedent and the law. I doubt they would take advice from a government website and presumably not be persuaded by the governments opinion.”

“How about this one Andy , the footpath outside my house is grass ,approximately 5 metres wide x 30 metres long ,it looked a bit bare and we are always being told to plant native trees to attract bird life so i decided to plant some natives , those trees are over a metre high now .
i have been informed that if some one trips over those trees the Council will sue me and if the person who trips over them sues me the Council would support that person in court , the Council could sue me for planting the trees if they wanted to , the solution appeared easy dig the trees up , not possible i'm afraid because the trees are over a metre high and it is illegal to dig native trees up if they are over a metre high ,it is also illegal for the Council to dig them up ,apparently i should have obtained Council permission in writing before i planted them , fair enough i accept that.
My footpath is 5x30 metres ,and on the eastern side of my house is a small block of land owned by the Department of Main Roads 25 x 10 metres approximately , at the rear of my house is block of land 35 metres x 4 metres approximately also owned by the Main Roads Dept, i cut the grass on all 3 sides of my house using my own lawn mower , line trimmer and petrol , if i don't cut it the grass would keep growing and eventually become a haven for vermin and snakes.
My block is 800 square metres ,take off 10 x 8 metres for the house and 20 square metres for my sheds that still leaves me a total of 1240 square metres to mow every week in the summer in temperatures quite often in excess of 35c and if the Council and Main Roads really wanted to they could take me to court for cutting the grass outside of my block ,Bureaucracy gone crazy ? they never will complain about me cutting the grass of course i am doing their work for them .
I have already obtained legal advice about the trees and mowing grass that does not belong to me and I phoned the Council about cutting the grass , the Council informed that if i didn't cut the grass they would cut it ,i actually waited 3 months for them to cut it but nothing happened , and i like my garden and surrounding area to look neat and tidy every day not once a year .
I never criticize our Council they are certainly 100% better than the old Mt Morgan Town Council that the State Goverment amalgamated with the Rockhampton City Council but i am 73 and i really think a bit of help from the Council wouldn't go astray ,
Councils everywhere need to try living in the real world for a while to get a taste of how ordinary people live .
Most people here mow the grass on the footpath , if they didn't the streets would look like third world towns and city's or the Councils would increase our rates to cover the extra cost of employing contractors to cut the grass , doesn't seem fair does it ?.”

“Some times we stray away from the original discussion , but the simple answer is PotterMous, no we should not be fined for not clearing the snow off the footpath , snow is an act of nature and the decision whether we clear the snow off the footpath or not should be the individual householders decision .”

“Well said pommymick I totally agree. If the council took up this idea then the next step would be to go private and have snow monitoring teams issuing on the spot fines just like the wheel clampers do making a mint from normal average people.
Its a stupid idea that is best left well alone.If anyone wants to clear the snow then let them do so and if they dont clear it because they are busy with the kids or at work or old or disabled ec etc etc etc etc then so be it.The world is bad enough as it is with everyone sueing each other for everything already.This country gets more like america every day . . . GOD HELP US !”